Nicola Hümpel in Conversation with Knut Elstermann – Live from Bikini Berlin
Link to the interview
What is the whole truth about lies? Where can it be found, and what emerges when it is uncovered? In the age of Artificial Intelligence and social networks, those searching for the truth about lies often end up in paradoxes — or in the theater.
With "The whole Truth about Lies", the performance collective NICO AND THE NAVIGATORS explores the unpredictable power of deception. In this Berlin world premiere, they dive into the realm of music theater. Today, we speak with Nicola Hümpel, artistic director of Nico and the Navigators, at studioeins in Bikini Berlin.
Elstermann: “The Whole Truth About Lies” is a new piece — or maybe a performance? We’ll get to clarify that soon. The premiere is next Thursday at Radialsystem, and I’m delighted to welcome the woman who not only brought this work to life but has created many boundary-defying projects, the kind you can’t quite label — is it a play? A performance? Perhaps even a discursive event? Please welcome: Nicola Hümpel from Nico and the Navigators.
Before we discuss your latest work, let’s give listeners a bit of context. Some time ago, I remember seeing huge posters and wondering: Can you actually vote for Fabian Hinrichs now? Is he running for something? I even asked him, but I missed it — what was that project about? That was yours too, wasn’t it?
Hümpel: Yes, even his plumber thought he was a real candidate. That was a highly political evening we created at the Federal Press Conference building, marking its 100th anniversary. It completely took off, and we were thrilled. The text by constitutional lawyer Maximilian Steinbeiß really hit the zeitgeist. And just one day after the Erfurt incident, audiences were practically going wild — the boundary between what we were performing and what was actually happening in real life blurred so intensely, it was surreal.
Elstermann: Sadly, I missed it — but you told me I can still watch it.
Hümpel: Yes, you all can — it’s available on ARTE Mediathek. Due to high demand, it’s now subtitled in six languages: Polish, Italian, English, German, French, and Spanish.
Elstermann: That’s a great tip — and perhaps a perfect prelude to your next project. It sounds like there's a similar blurring of boundaries between real politics and art? What’s it like now at Radialsystem?
Hümpel: It’s completely different. We asked ourselves whether we should continue on that political path — and maybe we will. But this time, we’re going back to our other roots: poetic music theater. We're dealing with themes like fake news, self-deception, external manipulation, and what AI is doing to us — in short, everything that introduces falsehood into our lives. But this time, we approach it very personally. We go from global political and religious conflicts into the intimate private sphere. And I think it's become a heartwarming evening, one that gives hope, because the group works together with such tenderness and intensity — between dance, singing, and text. Plus this insane AI technology and Oliver Proske’s incredible stage design, where we literally see how we’re being tricked: people appear to fly even though they’re lying on the ground. We show how it’s done — and yet we still fall for the illusion. For me, that’s a metaphor for what we let society do to us.
Elstermann: So if I understand you correctly, when scaled down to the private or intimate realm, we lie all the time. Studies say people lie about 20 times a day…
Hümpel: 200 times.
Elstermann: Really? That much? We don’t even talk that often in a day!
Hümpel: Those 200 include omissions — which we’re seeing in real-world politics. It’s not just about direct lies, but also about withholding truths. Like saying, “I didn’t know that” instead of “I did know, but I’m not admitting it.” That kind of ambiguity creates room for manipulation.
Elstermann: To be fair, I think many of these lies are what we might call forgivable sins — if we said everything we thought, it would be unbearable. Lies also grease the wheels of social interaction. But your work isn’t about those small lies — it’s about the larger structures of deception. The frameworks politicians use to serve us falsehoods every day.
Hümpel: Exactly. We even tried an experiment: What happens if we are brutally honest with each other? Saying things like: “You look awful,” or “You smell.” It’s very uncomfortable. And no one wants that. There’s even a scene about it in the show. We also included classical music — works dealing with conspiracy and lies. Theater, as we know from Shakespeare, invites audiences into lies on purpose. That’s the pact. Theater is a consensual lie. And in this performance, we surrender to false love songs sung in artificial voices. It's a beautiful way to live — and raises the question: does lying help us survive?
Elstermann: That’s beautifully put. Art is a beautiful lie — but it’s one we’ve agreed to. We know it’s not “true,” but it enriches us. The other lies — the ones told by people in power — are far more dangerous. And they’ve become more and more absurd.
Hümpel: Yes, and we’re copying more and more of it. What scares me is how little courage we have to be ourselves — and how easily we’re swept up into going along.
Elstermann: Yes, it’s a parallel reality. Like when Trump said, “Germany doesn’t have enough wind, that’s why wind turbines are a complete failure, and that’s why Angela Merkel resigned.” That’s a real quote from Trump. He just says it — and we’re no longer even shocked. From December 12 to 15, Nico and the Navigators will perform their new piece at Radialsystem. Is “piece” the right word? Or is it more of a “performance”?
Hümpel: You can call it a piece.
Elstermann: Alright then — The Whole Truth About Lies. We've covered a lot, but I still haven’t understood everything — for example, let’s talk briefly about AI. You use it on stage. In what sense is that a lie? I mean, we know it’s AI.
Hümpel: It generates things live on stage. A dancer moves, and is transformed into figures like Putin, Trump, or Elon Musk — we don’t know exactly what will happen beforehand. It changes every time. It can be brilliant or not quite work — it’s unpredictable. But we’re showing how it’s done, showing what’s possible. We all know that politicians can now be made to “speak” fake speeches online. That reality gave us serious doubts during our research. As artists, we’re asking: are we making ourselves obsolete? You feed something in, and out comes something incredibly good. We even had AI generate a song in the style of Leonard Cohen about lies. We kept feeding it prompts: “Make it more drastic, more philosophical, sharper…” It kept improving. We added chords, and had someone with a stunning Cohen voice sing it — and it was damn good. But the group refused to use it. They said: no. We can’t. It’s not right.
Elstermann: Because they felt replaced. And I think journalism will face the same. In a few years, maybe news anchors will be replaced by AI — even presenters. And maybe they’ll be better than us.
Hümpel: I once fed the AI a prompt saying: “I’m depressed — because of you. Write me something.” It produced such an astonishingly good text, I gave it to my dramaturge and said, “Look what I found.” I didn’t say it came from AI. And he said, “This is incredible. Where did you get it?” I had to tell him. He didn’t think it was funny.
Elstermann: Well, I can give some reassurance. My colleague Karkowski once asked ChatGPT: “What should I ask Knut Elstermann in an interview?” The questions were all okay — nothing wrong — but they lacked inspiration. It felt like what a trainee might prepare. There was no warmth, no humor. So, yes — there’s still a difference. But we have to talk more about this. Maybe not for long, but for now, humans still bring something unique. Maybe the real question is: will humans adapt to AI?
Hümpel: Exactly.
Elstermann: Or maybe we can use it as a framework and then bring in warmth, the human touch. Let’s try to remain a bit optimistic. But in politics — that’s where I lose hope. It’s not even new. Goebbels once said: “The bigger the lie, the more likely it is to be believed.” Are we back there? Or have we even moved to a new level?
Hümpel: Or like Trump said: “Repeat a lie long enough, and people will believe it.” And that’s become mainstream — even democratic parties now use this as a strategy. How can we be expected to trust them when they abuse our trust? This could be our chance to really restore democracy — and if we fail, it might be our last.
Elstermann: Nicola, before we finish: How should I imagine this evening? You’ve talked about dancers, AI, people flying when they’re not flying… What kind of night is this?
Hümpel: It’s a typically “navigator-esque” collage — with dance, classical music, arias, pop songs, a breakdancer. A mix from Cohen to Baroque, a pastiche shaped by our research into the topic. Out of that, something emerged — a narrative that we couldn’t have planned. In rehearsal, it all came together in ways that still astonish us. You sit there and wonder: who came up with this?
Elstermann: Nicola, I’ll say this openly — I believe you. I have the feeling this will be a very special, beautiful, and timely evening. You might’ve been better off listing what’s not in the piece — that would’ve been easier! It’s clearly a wild mix, and audiences can experience it from December 12 to 15.
Hümpel: And for those who can’t get tickets — we’ll perform it again in April. Or you can come see it in Shanghai at the Shanghai Concert Hall.
Elstermann: Really? You’re doing it there too? Not bad. That’s exactly where it belongs. And just to be clear — December 12 to 15 at Radialsystem, then again in April, and then a mini tour to China: The Whole Truth About Lies by Nico and the Navigators. Thank you so much, and Merry Christmas.
Hümpel: You too — thank you!